Source: SEOSignalsLab

Pick His Brain!

I’d like to introduce one of our members, Jarod Spiewak, for our next ‘Pick His Brain’ session and I want to thank him for the participation.

For the past 2 years, Jarod’s focus has been on building his agency which offers SEO & Google Ads management.

He built his agency by heavily leveraging Upwork where he was making over $20,000 in monthly recurring revenue.

He now focuses on building custom strategies for every client and utilizes automation to be able to do more with less.

In 2-months, he helped a law firm increase their call volume by 170% leading to a minimum case value of $250,000 in 5-months.

In his free time, he has started working on affiliate SEO by buying sites and attempting to flip them.

Prior to having his own agency, he worked inhouse as the Lead SEO Strategist for a law firm marketing agency.

If you have any questions related to affiliate marketing or SEO, please feel free to pick his brain.

Here are the rules.

1) I’ll let the thread go on until he asks me to stop. Theoretically, this thread can continue until the FaceBook stock value goes to zero.

2) Please, no snarky remarks. I will not tolerate any intentional negativity. We are here to learn from each other’s success and strategies.

3) Please do not PM him and bother him. If you have a private question, ask for his permission on this thread when appropriate.

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Table of Contents

What’s your typical conversion ratio for law firm marketing?

For the agency to turn into clients? *knock on wood* we’ve only ever gotten 1 no to a retainer (work with more than just law firms) but the 1 no was from a law firm.

We don’t dive right into a retainer, we have an initial engagement called the Blueprint that clients have to go through.

Which is where we create the custom strategy for them.

I gave a talk on this in Chaing Mai, last year (some info is out of date)

What specific legal niches are you in?

For legal, mainly PI (80%) and family (20%).

But i’ve worked with just about all kinds. Crim def, immigration, military law, general lawyers, business law, etc.

I’d love to do more business law, for those that focus on M&A (mergers and acquisitions) as well as criminal lawyers.

Do you do retargeting for your clients?

For FB, no – don’t do anything with FB for clients. Simply not qualified to and it doesn’t make sense for us to add a bunch of other services.

We connect clients with others to handle things that we don’t (no PMs anyone, please!)

On Google Ads, haven’t found RLSA’s to be super effective, since most PI lawyers ideal case is people that aren’t looking to shop around and are picking up the phone right away.

The CPC’s also make Google Ads better suited for larger firms, so not all clients qualify in either budget or business acumen for G ads on the legal front.

How do you help local small lawyer client? If not FB, and not PPC.

SEO, or not at all. Not everyone is a good fit.

How do you structure websites, subpages or landing pages to convert? Because it’s a three-step process right? The Click, the conversion on the website, and then the close rate on the lead. You left out a step and I’m curious as to that part.

For restoration, it’s an emergency service.

People tend to call whoever they click on.

So, for the restoration clients I’m working with, their click to lead (conversion rate) is around 20%.

Based on the numbers they’ve given me (and from what I’ve researched) the close rate from lead to customer is 70-90% since it’s a “hey, my basement is flooded I need you here now” and not “let me think on this”

The CTR of the ads running right now are under 2%, though I’d like to get those up.

So the numbers could be:

Ad to website -> ~2%

Traffic to lead -> ~20%

Lead to customer -> ~80-90%

What’s the first thing you like to automate?

If it takes up more than 5-minutes of my time, I try and automate it.

I’m “efficiently lazy” I have dozens and dozens of Trello cards about things we can automate but haven’t gotten around to.

“First thing” is going to be specific to the person.

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For me, it was making sure (we do everything in G Drive) all sheets had templates.

Brand colors, etc. For example, if we need to look at backlinks in Ahrefs, we upload the CSV to an import sheet on G sheets

Then, automatically pull in the columns/data we need using VLOOKUP, QUERY, ARRAYFORMULA, IF statements, etc.

Since parsing data the same way in a sheets document, which is literally made for that – wasn’t smart to not have this.

That would be step 1 I think for most people because it’s really easy to grasp once you’ve done it a couple times.

And if you have a number of clients/sites – you’ll probably save your VAs a lot of time as well.

I wanted to add to this, aside from sheet templates, look at everything your VAs do.

We generally give VAs clear, strict, step-by-step, SOPs that have clear logic flows. DO this THEN that. IF this THEN that.

That’s the same logic computers use, so you can probably automate that task.

How would you begin fixing a site with 200+ posts, non-focused keyword strategy, and other SEO blunders?

First thing I always do with a site is clean it up.

If some of those 200+ posts don’t rank for anything worthwhile (check GSC) might be worth deleting them to clean up the size, complexity, and quality of the site.

What’s your lead gen process for your agency?

So, Upwork has been historically really good.

To the point where I don’t need to worry about client acquisition much.

Right now, the focus is on improving what we do (building more automation, SOPs, removing redundancies, etc.) so things like cold email.

Which I was heavily doing earlier this year – have been turned off to save me on time as we’re not looking for may more clients right now.

The general process for lead to sale is: {we find each other somehow} -> Video audit.

90% of the time, I’ll send them a video audit before we ever talk.

That way I don’t have to talk a lot of the technical stuff on a call (such as explaining how things like CallRail work or whatever)

They also get to know me and most people don’t put in the effort.

We get on the call already “knowing” each other and the prospect is able to see that I know what I’m talking about.

I’m REALLY big on educating customers, regardless of the business.

Video audit -> Phone call

Sometimes the phone call will come first, but that’s usually only if someone doesn’t feel comfortable sharing the website or giving me access to G Ads before talking.

In those cases, 50% of the time a video audit comes after unless we cover all the points the video would when on the phone.


This is where the split comes, so bear with me.




It’s not uncommon to close right on the phone. In which case we’ll just start working together.

It’s usually a bad sign, IMO if I’m asked for a proposal for Google Ads stuff after we’ve gone over all of the above.

Because I’ve already shown them where they need help and they can see the numbers of “If CPL was lowered by X that would mean Y”

If we do have to send a proposal, it’s a templated slide deck I save as a PDF and email over, since it’s not worth the time if they’re a tire kicker.



Before diving into a retainer, we require the client to go through a 1-time process called the Blueprint (name change pending, I’m not creative)

It’s not uncommon to close right on the phone.

If they want a proposal for the Blueprint, same as above – templated PDF

Basically, this is a 2-week process where we break down exactly what they need SEO wise.

There’s no commitment, so if they’re not happy – they can give our strategy to someone else or DIY it. We’ve only ever had 1 no after the Blueprint. **knock on wood**

This gives us a really good idea on what their budget needs to be for their goals, rather than taking a wild guess.

It also helps prioritize what needs to be done and find some of the nuances that are unique to that client.

Blueprint -> Live proposal

Once the BP is done, we do a screen share call going over our proposal to them.

This is always done live and never sent to the client ahead of time.

If they like what they see, we work together.

For Upwork, did you send them the list to call or they will do the research for you as well on given niche? We are interested in giving this a try . Any recommendation?

Not sure I fully understand. Let me know if this doesn’t answer your question.

I send a calendly link for them to schedule a time to talk to me.

If they schedule a call or start talking with me, I send a video audio before the call / during the conversion.

When entering a niche I haven’t been in before.

I do research (which I have to do in order to audit them in the first place) this determines if i even want to take them on

When you do outreach, what are you “Selling” the client? SEO, leads, ads? What do you start with/tell them? From my experience SEO is harder to sell to a cold lead since there is a waiting game involved where the client has to “trust” you enough to believe results are eventually going to come.

Email -> Video Audit -> Call

You’re correct that it’s more difficult to qualify someone.

And out process of not going right into a retainer makes it even more difficult because they hear “pay us to do no work”.

The video should set the ground on what you do, what SEO is, why they need it, and how it will help.

Then the call should qualify them and their business acumen.

What kind of automation are you doing now?

I think an easier question would be what do I NOT automate.

For some broad strokes:

Google Sheets – Using functions like QUERY, VLOOKUP, ARRAYFORMULA, and IF statements helps with data parsing.

As well as some custom and “borrowed from StackOverflow” App Scripts from.

Screaming Frog – Automating crawls and being able to run complex crawls quickly, while taking up fewer resources by using the Terminal.

I wrote an article on how to do this here:

Various Python (written by others) and JavaScript (written by me) scripts.

And of course, utilizing tools that already exist, such as scrape box.

For some specifics:

We do everything in G Drive, so we found a script that allows us to dupe our new client folder as well as the ~50 docs inside of it, rather than having to manually do so.

For Account Management I use basic HTML & JS to have templates where I just fill in form options like “client name” and “document URL” to send formatted emails.

I do this instead of canned responses because of the lower margin for error.

I have a Google Sheet that (mostly use for citations but can use for all) where we run a list of citation URLs through Screaming Frog.

Export the links, and import into the sheet where it parses the data to find all of the links to the client site, the anchor text, etc.

This was created due to vendors not giving us all the information we needed.

When I was doing cold emailing earlier this year.

I created a pretty hefted automation sheet in Google Sheets as well as a couple of scripts to pull in information.

Basically, was able to scrape a lot of information on businesses and tie together multiple tools by using Google Sheets.

I talked about some of them a little more in-depth on Matt Diggity’s site, there are even some download links to get copies of them.

Currently, I’m working on a really badass (IMO) automation which is basically a parent automation to try and tie in dozens of tasks and automation into 1 button click that will trigger automation.

Like email sending, running software, creating documents, uploading offline documents online, etc.

There’s also an economy of scale factor with automation which determines what’s practical.

For example, the Ahrefs API is like $400/m (don’t quote me on that) so, it’s not worth getting that until we take on $200/m of additional Ahrefs related expenses.

So, once it makes economic sense for us to upgrade to that – there will be a lot more automation we’ll be able to create, which will save us both time and money.

We also have various ideas for software to create as well as software that helps us tie in multiple automation that we already have, to further make things easier for us.

Through automation, I eventually want to get the Blueprint process to take 24-hours of our time in which we spread deliverables out over 7-days and will ideally be charging 2-3x more for it.

What’s your typical per lead acquisition cost?

Cost per lead:

Cold email during 2019: $88.53

However, almost $2,000 was spent on 1-time cost or yearly software, tools, scripts, etc.

So that number will drop just by sending emails at a higher scale as not all costs are fixed to volume.

Without those costs it’s ~$50

Upwork – these are rough numbers but I only track leads that I’ve talked to on the phone and after the call felt as though it was a possible fit.

Not just invites on jobs.

So far in Sep: $6.5

Aug: $4.6

July: $16.5

Are you factoring in cost for labor in this? I.E time spent talking to prospects, I guess probably not based on the low numbers.
Labor is a huge cost in the sales process, I’m guessing based on the numbers provided it’s your #1 cost and one not to be ignored especially as you scale up.

All labor except mine.

The cold emailing factors in VA time for prospecting and what not.

Neither factors in my time of getting on calls, etc.

I’m fixed-salary to regardless of how much I work, the cost to the business is the same.

We also don’t do any volume in clients, nor do we want to. So, I’m not worried about it.

What are you liking better right now, client SEO, or Affiliate SEO? General thoughts on each, and why you might prefer one over the other?

Hard to answer.

I’ve only been doing affiliate since June/July 2018 and bought my first site (other site was started) in Jan 2019.

It’s something I work on when I have free time so I haven’t “really” tried affiliate SEO,

What I like about affiliate is that I have 5 sites that make me money every month regardless if I work on them or not, can’t do that with clients.

Also, sometimes you get lucky. A site I bought in April/May could now sell for 5x what I bought it for.

Haven’t done anything but change the affil links on that site.

What attracts me to client work is my love for business and problem-solving.

Whenever I see a problem, I have the need for solving it.

Whether it’s my business, someone else’s, a client’s, etc.

It’s also what I’m used to. 95% of my career has been client work.

What do you look for when purchasing an affiliate website? Are you always purchasing with intent to sell within a certain timeframe? Do you buy affiliate websites with your passions/interests in mind or is it strictly about numbers and opportunity?

Let me answer each question individually:

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What do you look for when purchasing an affiliate website?

No solid process.

I’m new to this. I have enough SEO experience that a decent amount is based on “gut instinct”.

But, Ideally, I’m looking for a site that has problems that I can solve with quick wins that aren’t bad-quality-links or over-optimized-anchors related.

So, bar CRO, bad onsite, bad content, lack of powerful links, poor topic coverage, etc.

But, with that, has consistent earnings and traffic.

Since my time is so limited.

This allows me to focus on cleaning up the glaring issues rather than take over a site that did everything right and just needs more content and links to keep growing.

Are you always purchasing with intent to sell within a certain timeframe?

Playing it day by day. The 4 sites I’ve been talking about in my flip reports ( are more long-term.

Want to use them to better my affiliate skills and I’d ideally like to have each at least $1k/m before I sell.

As of right now, I want 1-2 sites that I keep to try and grow larger and larger and use their earnings to eventually fund other flips.

The next flip report is going to cover a starter site that I purchased, which I want to flip by the end of the year.

Do you buy affiliate websites with your passions/interests in mind or is it strictly about numbers and opportunity?

I’ve done both. It’s not about passion in my mind as much as it’s about knowledge, being able to understand the niche and what people would think/search for.

You can learn anything you want about any niche. If I were to grow a team dedicated to affiliate I would likely have whoever manages the site before

Involved in the niche and when I have more time, I’d want to hire content writers that are familiar with the niche.

I want to know your the keyword research method you use or the approach. To start a new affiliate wwbsite and what do you thing aboutthe KGR method if you have an idea about it.

I’ve never used KGR, personally, I see a lot of flaws with it.

I’m sure you could combine in into other methods of research to make it more effective or to disprove its effectiveness.

For affiliate, I’m doing keyword research on existing pages and topic research for new pages.

At which point I’ll do keyword research when we’re going to write the page.

I use Ahrefs mainly for research but have an automation sheet that helps pull in data from other sources to analyze as well.

What do you suggest to do for a new SEO agency to get clients?

Whatever works for you. Seriously.

If you’re good at direct sales, try cold email or cold calling.

If you’re great at FB ads, run ads.

You may be a great speaker, try talking at meetups, BNI, chamber events, niche events, etc.

Next factor in your niche and what they respond to.

For example, if you cold email a doctor’s office.

You’re going to be emailing the gatekeeper so your numbers are going to be very different than someone who cold emails contractors who tend to answer their own emails.

Figure out what works for you and double down on it.

Dissect it to do it better, maximize it’s potential then look at additional channels.

What would you do in a niche where Google Ads and SM are prohibited and it’s rather a long time to wait till SEO fires, to get leads quickly?

Depends on the business.

Let’s take CBD for example, A consulting client of mine is in the CBD space and they do a lot of in-person events as well as branding efforts.

“Quickly” likely is going to be direct response.

That could be traditional media buying, getting booths at events, etc.

If you mention the business type, I may be able to give more specifics.

Having 3 com stores in the same high competition niche for 10 years and only one doing well, would you redirect the not so good to the main one?
Buying expired domains in the same niche and redirect to the main store. Is that a good strategy or should one restore from I hear one loses 20% of link juice by redirecting.

Obligatory SEO: “It depends” statement.

In my mind, from an SEO perspective to do a redirect it just has to look natural.

The website was acquired, merger, etc.

Since it’s been around and alive for so long, it *most likely* is fine to redirect.

For any 1:1 page (same topic) I could change the canonical to the primary site and 301 the page as well directly to the primary version of that page.

I haven’t messed with buying domains just for the sake of 301ing them.

If I did TRY that, I would rebuild the site, make sure it indexes and ranks and then try redirects 6-12 months later.

What is your rule of thumb in affiliate marketing?

Probably not. I’m really new to affiliate.

When it comes to buying sites, I guess you could say my business acumen comes into play.

For niche edits, would an article with older or newer published date be better (assuming all other metrics are equal)? If performing niche edit links, is adding just a few sentences in the article sufficient? Is it recommended to renew the published date of the article after the niche edit link and a few sentences have been added?

I’m not an expert at link related stuff.

But, in my humble opinion: I’d prefer an aged page.

But I’d be looking at whether those pages have internal links pointing to them or external links.

I’d also look at content relevancy and metadata relevancy. If truly everything is equal, then the older one.

For adding content, add whatever is needed for relevancy. You may not need to add any content depending on the context of the article.

Changing the published date won’t do much IMO.

Google’s freshness patent shows that they take the gravity of changes into account.

So, changing the date would be a minor change to the page.

Some sites do change their publish dates when they naturally update an article so that people can rediscover it and its changes.

But only when it’s large changes, not small ones.

Do you use multiple Upwork Profiles? How do you feel about the recent changes to Upwork and getting work on there (where you have to pay to bid)?

Just 1 profile. I’ve given away strategies for people on how to leverage multiple profiles in a way that I would think would work really well.

But I wouldn’t do that myself.

Personally, I like the changes to the bids.

I’ve been way more bullish on Upwork since.

Why do you like changes to the bids? How would you recommend for someone new on upwork to get started?

Cheaper bidding on jobs compared to before.

Advice now is same as always, get a couple jobs that are ar easy to do that take an hour or two.

Do it for cheap if need be to build your profile of jobs, earnings, and reviews.

That in and of itself will propel you.

Could you please explain roughly how much SERP increase difference would there be between each of below? 1) A dofollow guest post on an actual blogger blog DA40 (usually costs around $50) 2) A dofollow guest post on a PBN also DA40 (usually costs around $10) 3) A dofollow guest post on Blogloving / TheOdysseyOnline type of websites DA90+ (usually costs $5)

There’s way more involved to be able to even take a somewhat educated guess at answering your question, sorry.

Any answer I gave would be a misinformed one.

How do you automate things that instrinsically need a human eye and expertise. Eg keyword research, identifying link opportunities etc?

Let me be general and then specific. To me, there are 5 things to think about with automation.


Are you completely automating this or automating part of the process to streamline it?

Then, should you automate it? This is based on price, practicality, and time.

For the first part, you may not be able to automate keyword research completely.

But you may be able to automate data gathering by scraping and using APIs.

You may be able to automate parsing that data using filters and queries.

Next, should you automate it?

Let’s stick with keyword research.

Theoretically, you could use machine learning algos along with NLP to find relevant search terms and then another algo to parse the quality of relevant terms.

However, doing that may take months or years of research, training the machine, testing, fixing, etc. So it may not makes sense due to time.

Next, it may cost you $xx,xxx-$xx,xxxx to create that.

That may not be affordable, and it may take you years to recoup the costs in saved time compared to just doing it yourself.

It may require you to create a separate SAAS business to recoup costs, which may not make sense for you.

Finally, quite simply – how practical would it be to spend that time and money to automate that compared to some alternatives of automating part of the process or hiring a keyword research expert.

Now, let’s be specific.

I have a keyword research automation sheet.

The public version is a bit out of date now.

Part of the process is automated. For example, we have import sheets which parse all of the data we download from Ahrefs & GSC.

It then parses both lists to remove duplicate terms.

Manually, we decide which keywords are worth going after and which page to map them to.

Automatically, we have a script to duplicate a sheet template and rename it based on a parameter, additionally.

It automatically pulls in the keywords mapped to that page.

So, we have 1 sheet that has all of the keywords and n amount of sheets 1 for each money page that automatically pulled in the keyword just for those pages as well as MSV, CPC, KD, etc.

I did some research on possible uses of machine learning for automating this further (and there are still things we can automate in this process) but it just wasn’t practical to do so.

First, I would break whatever you want to automate into specific steps and see how you can automate those steps rather than take on the large task of “automating keyword research” which is going to be overwhelming just to research if that’s practical.

Would love to delve into your techniques and ideas a bit more – where is the best place to do that?

The version we use right now has more bells and whistles. But the general concept is the same.

I’m really shit at putting out content, but when I do it’s either at or

I try and keep any external things I’ve done on this page:

For local clients that offer multiple services in multiple cities how do you structure the sites and how do you build authority/relevance for all the sub markets?

Generally something along the lines of:

Main location:

If it’s a larger site is may make sense to next them.

For low competition locations. 1 page with all services

For higher comp, broken out into subpages.

What are your favorite marketing automation tools or stack? What tasks would you want to automate now in your agency but are unable to do so now?

I build/tie most things into Google Sheets.

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Most of the time I’m either looking at Python or JavaScript scripts and building my own tools.

If I had more complex acquisition methods that involved things like email, webinars, case studies, remarketing, etc.

I would probably have something like Infusionsoft set up.


Various onsite SEO related tasks for WordPress.

There are some various restrictions and because everything is pulled from the database.

It’s not as simple as having a script open every HTML files and use regex to make a change.

One of the next “big” things I’ll do is probably create a couple custom WP plugins to help with the onsite process.

We’re already looking into some things.

A lot of the current automation tools on the marketing (such as internal link automation) just aren’t good enough.

It wouldn’t be fully automated onsite, but it would save us a hell of a lot of time.

What are some of your favorite google sheets scripts?

A script that outputs the name of the sheet, since there’s no native function to do this.

This allows my to dynamically move data to sheets without having to set the sheet name in the quation.

Another script that duplicates a sheet n amount of times and renames the sheets based on an array of strings.

So, copy, pasting, and renaming a sheet 50 times takes less than a minute.

Those are the 2 I use most often.

What are your recommended sources to build SEO expertise ?

I’m probably not the best to answer this.

I have ADHD and one of the effects is that when I get into something, I’m a sponge who’s discovered cocaine.

I go research crazy when I’m learning something new.

For me, I think the Moz 101 guide was the first “how to do SEO” article I ever read.

From there, I Google’d a lot. I started reading every post on places like Search Engine Land, Search Engine Watch, etc.

I had a list of sites I would check every week and read every article that came out.

That’s still what I would do today because that’s what works for me.

You might be better at learning by taking a single course and ignoring everything else.

Depends on how you’re best at learning.

If we set it to visible to upwork do people start to contact us? Do you have tips on the side of things of getting clients to contact contact us VS applying? We apply to about 40 jobs a month on there. Maybe 20 reply but then maybe 1 actually has the money to spend and we end up working with them. If we could have that 1 client contact us directly it would be amazing.

I’ve never had things on private, so i’m not sure the difference.

If you want to get a lot of invites, get top-rated status.

Success score of 90%+ for 13 weeks in a row.

It’s hard to get but easy to lose.

Mostly cuz their algo is bad at scoring it and single 4-star review can take you from 95% to 65% for some reason.

But, at my peak in 2017, I was getting over 100 invites to jobs a month.

Aside from that, your profile copy.

I get a lot of comments on my copywriting and have had people make private jobs just for me before, because of the copy.

I wouldn’t rely on just waiting for them to contact you.

Did you ever use google stacking? If yes, do you still use it?

Never used it.

Do you use guest post and PBNs for your clients site? If so, Do you have a favorite guest posting service company and for PBNs? What do you start off with for backlinks for your lawyer clients?

Yes to both.

Though, when it comes to PBNs.

I’m not very aggressive and I use them in cases where the budget can’t support other link building.

Guest Posts:


Authority Builders


Then others as needed if I need something specific.


Rank club for T1s

Arch SEO for T2

DFYLinks for T2

Before doing any link building, we’ll have done an audit and determined the needs of the site.

We may go for guest posts, PBNs, T2 links, or something more specific (such as resource page links if we feel we need to).

Do you do everything in house? Or do you have go-to services you Rely on for building , content, &link building?

As of right now, SEOButler does all my affiliate content.

Haven’t done much link building on any of my affil sites.

Some PBNs and GPs from the sources listed in my other comment (copied here):

Guest Posts:


Authority Builders


Then others as needed if I need something specific.


Rank club for T1s

Arch SEO for T2

DFYLinks for T2

Do you work with small businesses?

Pretty much all of our clients would be classified as small businesses.

So, yes

Is Upwork much harder to get good SEO clients today for people with newer accounts? Is it much more competitive today? I’ve heard some say it is much better for getting PPC clients nowadays.. I see they charge 15 cents to eve submit proposals now as well.. Is there any advice you would give to someone still wanting to get SEO clients on UpWork?

I don’t have a new account, so it’s hard to say.

Competition has gone up in terms of the quality of applications someone will get when they post an SEO related job.

But that’s to be expected as Upwork as a company has grown.

They only charge to submit bids once you run out of your connects, I believe.

I don’t have the free account so that could have changed.

I’m copying my advice from an earlier comment: get a couple jobs that are ar easy to do that take an hour or two.

Do it for cheap if need be to build your profile of jobs, earnings, and reviews.

That in and of itself will propel you.

For lead generation do you relay on UpWork only? By the way, What’s your suggestion to write a effective proposal on UpWork?

This year, clients have come from Upwork, cold email, and Facebook (just people reaching out to me from groups).

My focus shifted from growing the client base to improving what we do.

And since we get so many leads from Upwork and it’s very little effort.

We stopped doing any acquisition efforts that took up a lot of time to focus that on the business.

I’m always playing around with proposals. I would say:

-Make it relevant to their posting

-Mention your qualifications

-Show your personality

I just give them enough information to get to the next step with me, the phone call.

Any specific tips you can please share for seo for law firms like you did to increase call volumes or any resources you can share? I am starting to work for a law firm and since you have the relevant experience it will be really helpful.

Focus on strategy.

Anyone can do onsite, build links, follow an SEO, etc.

The strategy as to how much you do, when you do it, how you change your SOP when needed, etc.

Is what really makes the difference.

I talked about this in my talk in CM:

Can I ask how many people do you employ in your agency and what’s the ratio or full time to freelance?

Aside from myself:

-Graphic designer

-Web developer

-As needed Python devs (2 of them)

-Citation specialist


All part-time right now.

Through the automation I’ve built, certain processes that would take 50-70 hours without automation now take 20-30 hours.

Which has massively reduced the needs for VAs in a lot of cases and reduces the implementation time of SEO related tasks.

I was going to hire a local full-time person a couple months ago, but after digging into it, decided to focus on improving our current automation and systems first.

The next hire will either be an on-page specialist (no PMs please anyone) or that local person who has 0 experience.

Let’s say you own an affiliate site, how would you scale the scale production and link building (outreach and guest post)? Any Pro tips about landing quality links which is effective for you?

Scale in terms of just being able to send more requests to websites?

For the outreach part: Figure out the best prospecting method for you, BEFORE trying to automate anything.

From there, I would look at automating as much as possible.

Let’s say you just search for something on Google, grab the top 100, and then parse the list from there.

I would use a tool (probably custom built but Scrapebox can do this) to grab the top 100 based on search queries.

I would have it set up to I can just feed it a list of search queries and it runs each search to grab the top 100.

Then, I’d add the import the SERP files into a spreadhseet.

This sheet would parse any duplicate sites/URLs.

We’d then run all the sites through Ahrefs (batch analysis) and export.

Since we’re dealing with bulk, another sheet will parse the list based on organic traffic estimates and sites with a low or high DR.

From there, we’d use a tool to scrape the contact info from each site.

Any site that we couldn’t find contact info for, we’d have a VA check to see if there was an email or contact form.

Then, import that lists into a tool.

Anything that’s a contact form would go to a tool that can autofill contact forms using our email templates and ideally automatically refill the form the follow-up.

If we did have their info, we’d use an email sending tool.

Something like pitch box may work but I’m not familiar enough to say so.

At least, that’s what sounds good in my head.


Link building is the least of my worries.

There are so many link sellers, outreach guys, etc. nowadays that all do decent to good work that I’m more focused on things that I feel don’t have good services.

Maps and onsite.

So don’t you think outreach automation decrease the response rate?

Depends on what you automate and the quality of the automation.

You could automate link outreach from start to finish – but the quality would likely be low.

I would start the automations around prospecting & data parsing, then go from there.

Can I ask where do yo got for link building out reach or to find link placements?

There are so many decent vendors when it comes to links, my recommendations would be either SEOButler or Authority Builders.

Can I ask how do you diversify you anchor ratio or what’s your rule when you do link building?

Not exact numbers, but to give you an idea:

Branded anchors, URL anchors: 90%

5% contain a key phrase, could be a 5 word anchor with only 1 word being keyword related often is the name of the page (when building links in affiliate or to blog posts)

5% MISC (visit, source, found in this article, etc)

Mix anchors to repeat as seldom as possible.

Never repeat anchors with keywords.

I try to be conservative (especially since the past few updates).

Keeps things as safe as possible and minimizes cannibalization.